Because I have no other great place to think that doesn't create another random scrap of easily-losable paper floating around my home, I'm going to put my thoughts here to discuss with dh later. :)
-Still having trouble seeing how to "be the authority" in our children's lives without being authoritarian (at least at times, at least with the two most stubborn "I do only what I want and really don't care much WHAT you want" children). I bend over backwards but really, how often MUST I tell the almost 3yo not to shake her baby brother's head??? (apparently it's more than several times a day, every day since his birth! - and yes, I watch her all the time, but even when I'm *right there* changing his diaper or something she'll come over while my eyes are on his diaper area and grab his head!) If I *demand* she stop and punish when she doesn't, I'm being authoritarian, no? Am I just supposed to let her??
- Are we really *supposed* to let children make so many decisions for themselves? Didn't God set it up so that we could tell them what to do because we are older and wiser? Yes, many children seem to be OK at this from an early age, but we do have at least one child (so far) who is very impulsive, always acts first and thinks later, which unless tempered a bit by parental "control" of her choices/activity, causes multiple problems each day for multiple family members.
-Just how DOES this work when you have 5 irrational children (i.e. 5 under 11 - the oldest acts more like 8 so it's more like 5 under 8? - and my 2yo has to count twice because she is SOOOOO TWO, LOL!)
- opposing needs. Baby needs sleep, 5yo chooses to do something loud - I ask for it to stop and explain why, she refuses. What do I do now - MAKE her stop? Isn't that coercive? Punish her for not stopping? No, that's bad too. Show her something fun and quiet to do? "No mom, I want to bang this pot." Now what? (yes we have a white noise machine, it's not enough for my light sleepers in this small house). Just let her wake the baby? Then he's cranky and my attention is less for them because I have to deal with him. With five kids in little house and two nappers, this could (and sometimes does) happen EVERY DAY. This is just one example.
-I'm still having trouble with what I call "jumping through hoops". We do have certain "arbitrary" rules in the house because as older and wiser parents we see a need for them - for example, no food outside the kitchen w/o permission (we have a horrible ant problem). Soon-to-be-3yo comes out with a chocolate chip muffin. I ask her to go back in kitchen with short explanation why. She does, for two seconds, and comes back out with it again. And again. I think she just wants company but I'm nursing - or helping another child, or changing a diaper or whatever. Really, should I "jump through the hoop" of putting the baby down to keep her company? Or should I jump through the hoop" of having to follow her around all day with a dustbuster so she can eat where she wants? (I have no energy to follow five children around with the dustbuster - and yes they all would start eating everywhere if I let the 2.5yo). No, I really just want her to EAT IN THE KITCHEN, which means she has to obey me when I ask her nicely to!
-Here's one that just happened - it shows how much of a control freak I am but it seems to me like I have to be or things don't go well here. This seems like a silly example but it's the little things like this that add up humongously. We made a new kind of rice milk today from a powder. I put it in the fridge because I heard it's better *really* cold. Lunch rolls around and I don't think it's cold enough to be good. My 10 is helping with lunch while I'm in another room dealing with a crying baby, and she suggests the rice milk to the 5yo, who tastes it and declares it yucky. Well, if they had just followed my suggestion that it was better at dinner (when it would have had time to get ice cold) then I wouldn't have a 5yo on my hand who doesn't like this new (and much easier to get/cheaper) rice milk. Now 5yo won't want it again without lots of cajoling (more hoop jumping?) on my part. She has a limited diet and is growing slowly so yes, I worry about this stuff and feel I need to be controlling ... Didn't make clear where I got impatient in that story, it was where the 10yo came out and said she told the 5yo she could have the rice milk for lunch. I said yes to be the nice, non-controlling mom but when I found out she didn't like it because yes it really WAS too warm, I snapped at the 10yo for suggesting it in the first place (taking things out of my own control). But if I said "no absolutely not" then I'm "bad controlling mom". No win situation. 100's of these a day!
- Does this really work *well* with kids under a certain age? (or all kids under a certain age with no older sibling role models?) Just my limited experience, but where I see this working well is in parents of teens/tweens. When I see MOMYs trying it, the just seem strung out by it - and the kids don't seem all that genuinely happy either.
- Another case in point that just happened. I'm still nursing in next room and older DDs are helping make lunch - 2yo has a major meltdown (she's prone to them, not just when she is hungry/tired - she really just insists on getting her way) because DD gave her milk instead of the ice water she wanted in her cup. Do I give in to her melt down to "save our relationship" (because I personally don't care what she drinks at this meal) - doesn't that just teach her to tantrum more which really ruins the peace of our home? If I just sympathise she continues to demand and carry on. (multiply this by 50x a day) If I punish and/or refuse the water I've damaged the relationship, at least in her eyes - and isn't this all about "seeing things through their eyes and respecting that"? Just how does this work with irrational children?
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I've taken enough time right now, gotta run- I'm going to post this, not to get replies (although I thoroghly enjoy them and would love the discussion), and definitely NOT to take this away from Lissa's comment section, but so dh can see it and also because I know other people have similar questions. BTW, Lissa's post was mostly about unschooling and how it relates to patience and a certain kind of "unschooling/uncoercive/patient/living-in-and-loving-the-moment parenting -- I get how it relates to schooling, but I'm having a lot of trouble seeing how to run a house/family effectively that way. Maybe that's my problem, I'm seeing myself as "running the family" so everything goes smoothly, and I probably should have a totally different mind set. But when I don't *run the family* things are SO hard here and I'm even more strung out/tired/snappy...
On that happy note, I'm off to convince a 2yo she needs a nap! LOL
8 comments:
Oh Amy! I am so there with you. I have all those questions and situations in my life as well. I wish I had better answers, but I don't. The only thing I can offer right now is some sympathy and "i'm there with you too, hon!"
Amy,
These are just some things that came to mind as I was reading. I don't live in your house and I haven't met all of your children so please take tat into consideration. I don't know if my suggestions will work for you , it's just how I have learned to parent more gently and let go of the control issues I have. I am writing this between doing other things so please forgive it's hodge podge manner and skipping around.
Re the rice milk: You felt it would be better cold and more likely the 5 yr. old would drink it that way and since you have legitimate concerns for her health it makes sense that you would want to do it a certain way. I would not have given in to the suggestion to have it for lunch but rather I would try to say to the 10 yr. old (in my case I have an 8 year old who sounds very similar). "Sweetie, mommy really needs your help. I know that if 5 yr. old drinks the milk now she won't like it as much as if she drinks it when it's colder tonight at dinner. Can you think of a way to help me get her to wait until then?" "It's so wonderful that you are trying to be helpful by suggesting drinking the rice milk for lunch but what else do you think she could have instead?" Will this always work? No but most of the time it does and it works more the more you employ it. Your 10 yr. old is the oldest. She wants to help (as much as she is capable)...she wants to "be in charge" on some level - it's a birth order thing. Completely normal. Find ways to let her do that but get her on your side so that she becomes a team member WITH you and not someone you are butting heads against. Praise her when she does well and not just big things but little things. Mention to your dh (when she can hear you) how helpful she was today. Tell her how much you appreciate her help and ask for her opinion and input on things ("gee honey do you think we should have carrots or green beans with dinner?") Again this may take time but my experience tells me it helps in the long run. The question is does your 10 yr. old feel like she is a help to you or does she feel like a burden? She will behave in the way she perceives herself.
The two (almost 3 yr. old) and the baby. She's little and like it or not you are going to just have to stay one step ahead of her. Can you change the baby somewhere she can't reach him or when she's not around? I know, not always feasible. Can you sit down with her and teach her how to touch the baby? Over and over again and for every time she does it right give her lots of praise and hugs. For every time she does it wrong you say "Oh sweetie we have to be careful, remember how mommy showed you how to touch the baby?" Instead of NO or demanding her to STOP use words like "please be gentle" and "careful please". Will it work? Maybe, but you can pretty much rest assured she will grow out of it and in the meantime you will have to just watch her like a hawk (exhausting I know). As for the muffin thing I don't let my two year olds have access to the kitchen. If they need something and I can't get it one of the older children help.
The milk/ice water thing. Yes I would give in. She melts down because she doesn't know how to communicate well what she needs and people bigger than her are constantly making decisions for her. I know this one - it's what happens in my house with my 3 yr. old. If he did this (and he has!) I would give him the water while explaining to him gently that I understand they didn't hear what he wanted and next time he needs to try and tell us what he wants without getting so upset. I would smile, console him and gently tell the older children to please be more careful to hear what the little one is saying. Am I teaching him to be selfish and flip out every time he doesn't get his way? If you had asked me that 20 years ago I would have said yes and never given in to such a display. But hard nosed discipline doesn't work with this child and I HAVE seen his mood and behavior improve with this gentler more understanding kind of parenting. And with it I had to learn to let go of the idea of "I am the parent and you WILL listen to me" and move more towards the "How can I help this child?" kind of thinking. Because what I KNOW from experience is that the former may work in the short term but it doesn't win their hearts in the long term. And that really is what you want - to win their hearts.
Sorry for the muddled reply. Again take what works and leave the rest. I hope something has been helpful.
Love and prayers,
Michele
Michele, I see the wisdom in so much of what you wrote and really appreciate the perspective of a mom with many of many ages (i.e. I have trouble listening to a mom of one 3yo telling me how to raise my 10yo, LOL!)
FWIW, I have done all you said about the "head shaking" thing, but because the baby is mostly with me, and so is the 2yo, there are a million opportunities for her to be rough and she continues to do so. Because I *do* watch her like a hawk it never gets past the first "head grab" to be damaging but she is still touching him "inappropriately." We are hoping she grows out of it soon! We are hoping she outgrows A LOT of things soon, LOL, she'll probably make a great adult some day if the stress of her super strong personality doesn't kill us all first! ;)
At our house, the heavy duty behavioral issues we've faced in the past have helped us sharpen our focus on some of these issues. Safety is always our number one concern and trumps "nice mommy-ness". LOL So if my 2 yos are mishandling the baby, I will start out as Michelle suggested... but with my boys, that doesn't usually work. They're the kind of kids who like to push every limit they can to figure out if it's the same in ALL situations. So if they're ganging up on the baby while I'm trying to change him, then I have to do *something*; I can't let them mob him while I'm being nice. I don't feel guilty at that point being quite authoritative in dealing with the problem (or authoritarian; at that point I'm not about to get into semantics!) Safety has always been the biggest issue with my 11 yo ds who has TS as well, and he knows that I will step in swiftly and decisively to stop a situation that has gotten out of hand.
What I have noticed about my own kids is that they like having some structure, rhythm, and routine. With 6 kids, I can't always let them make their own decisions about everything. In a large family, they can't always do what they want. I believe that this is teaching children to take the needs of others into account. (For instance, no one bangs pots during naptime. In fact, everyone in the house is supposed to have quiet time at naptime, and yes, it is something that I have imposed on my children. On the other hand... quiet time has existed in our house for so long that now my kids *need* it and voluntarily take quiet time. Without quiet time, everyone gets frazzled and cranky.)
Anyway, I guess maybe I sound rather authoritarian. I do tend to give my kids choices on a daily basis, but too many choices and everyone gets worn out trying to make the decision. I don't believe that any of your rules are unreasonable: keeping food in the kitchen, not shaking the baby's head, and not banging pots at naptime are all good rules. I think the key is to figure out whether the rules we make serve a real need or if we are just saying no because it's more work to say yes, or because it's just a personal preference, like prefering chocolate to vanilla ice cream.
The other key, IMO, is to enforce those rules consistently and without yelling and throwing things. LOL
I can sympathise with your situation. My response is probably going to seem contradictory. I agree with Michele about giving in to the water/milk tantrum. But I would make sure I talked through the 2 yo's feelings with her so she learned how to express herself better. I believe tantrums are not manipulative behaviour, just expressions of a need.
However, I am generally a strict mother. Or it is probably more right to say that I am the one running my family, because I'm really quite soft and don't discipline much. But I strongly believe that, if I tell my child to stop doing something, she should stop simply because I said so. Then we can discuss it. Children do not have the wisdom or understanding to make their own decisions, and giving them too many choices is unhealthy for their development. (This is actually a Waldorf principle, so I'm being hippy rather than old-fashioned and strict.)
I agree with Angel, children need boundaries. It helps them shape their sense of self and keeps them feeling safe. But although I am authoritative, I think it is also possible to set your child up to succeed, and so have little need for discipline. For example, with the rice milk, I would make it clear from the beginning that it had to wait a certain amount of time. So there was no confusion. Now that your child has drunk it and not liked it, if I was you I'd say, "give it another go." I'd even be happy saying there was a sticker in it for a brave kid who dared to drink the milk. Lots of cheering and encouragement. But if they refused, they wouldn't get an alternative drink.
Another example: when my dd was little she hated the transition time just before leaving the house. She hated putting on shoes etc. So I made a big game of it. The shoes talked to each other and to her feet, etc. It worked brilliantly. I did this with just about everything. Because I knew *I* wasnt going to budge on the issue of shoes, and I wanted to make my life easier. It's my line that is in the sand, not the child's.
But if my 2yo was continuously hurting the baby no matter how often I had tried to stop her, absolutely she would be growled at and put in her room. At other times through the day I would teach her how to be more gentle, and help her develop a loving relationship, since obviously she is jealous. But safety first.
Of course, I only have one child! ;-)
I'm back :-) and must say that I like Patience's reply a lot. Prevention, I think, is always better, if it can be arranged... I do find with my twins that I can stave off a whole host of disciplinary actions if I'll just sing to them at crucial times, such as during diaper changes or at bath times.
Amy,
I have no advice, just camaraderie! Have to go save the baby from getting into Daddy's bar now!
I dropped in on the conversation at Lissa's yesterday, and am interested in what you have to say. This is a conflict we deal with, too.
Of my four kids, I have exactly one who has always just done what I asked him to do, when I asked in a nice voice. The other three, not so much. My youngest spent her first year of life being totally mauled by her brother, who's 16 months older, so I sympathize with your baby situation. Prevention does work wonders, but isn't always possible . . . I wish I could remember how we all survived that year, in a tiny apartment and homeschooling for the first time, no less, but it's a total blur.
I do like what Michele says about making your oldest a team member. That has worked with my very strong-minded now-14-year-old. I try, as much as I can, to make her my ally and first mate, and she really rises to the responsibility, even when I feel I'm loading her up with jobs. I guess it seems to her that I'm treating her with respect in not treating her like a little kid who has to be directed. Somehow when I'm depending on her to be a quasi-grownup, it's easier to talk to her as I would talk to a grownup who was in my house helping me, which helps us not to clash too much. We clashed CONSTANTLY when she was small, so I am grateful beyond words for the ease of our relationship most days. Not all, but most.
I like Patience's reply a lot, too, though there are some children for whom the playing-a-game kind of thing does not work. My oldest was one of them - when she was two and three and four and five, leaving the house was an absolute nightmare. Putting on socks? I still have bad dreams. Snowpants (we lived in Utah at the time)? Please. We tried everything. We read everything. Avoiding "trigger" situations helped with a lot of her hypersensitivity reactions, but we couldn't avoid leaving the house for like eight years.
I could not SAY things like, "Because I am your mother and I said so," because she wouldn't have heard me over the screaming. But I could act it out, with as much patience as I could possibly muster, which sometimes wasn't much, by just holding her down and stuffing her into her clothes if we had to go somewhere. Once we'd get there, she'd be fine. Actually, once we were in the car and out of the driveway, she'd be fine. Tantrum? What tantrum? I'm not sure it's necessarily disrespecting a child to realize and assert, because you are older and have adult perspective, that you have to get through whatever the current obstacle is, because on the other side things will be just fine. Sometimes that does mean forcing an issue. Does it mean forcing every issue? I don't think so -- I guess you just have to gauge both the obstacle and the thing on the other side and decide whether the other side is worth it.
And then there's my five-year-old, who looks at you, while you dialogue with him about whatever the issue is, as if you had dropped in for a visit from Pluto, and he was going to be very nice to you and make no sudden moves, and then when you finish he slopes off very quiety and inconspicuously to continue doing whatever it was that you thought you were convincing him was a bad idea just now. "I'll just humor her," you can hear him thinking. And, so, what do you do with someone who has that as their MO, and who often wants to do dangerous and destructive things (jumping off bunk beds; hiding outside where you can't find him and not answering when you call, for like an hour; pulling up all the bricks out of the garden borders to make a fort out of, when you told him last time he did it not to do it again, and showed him other things he could use, and so forth).
I really believe in treating my children with respect, as people in their own right, and I've also seen that most difficult little-kid behaviors eventually are grown out of. My teenager, who tantrumed constantly as a young child, has matured into a person with great self-control and discipline. Even the two who give me fits most often have more self-control and are easier to live with now than they were just a year or two ago. I need to remind myself of that more often than I do.
I also believe in picking my battles carefully -- I give in a lot on certain people's clothing choices, for example, because as long as a person is modest and not going to freeze or get heatstroke, it's no skin off my nose if their outfit gives their teenage sister the fashion hives. I could probably stand to let go of more things, though the things I do insist on are things which have to do with having everyone's life run smoothly -- get dressed, in some kind of clothing, when I say so, because we need to go somewhere; accept that what's for lunch is what's for lunch and don't throw your sandwich on the floor because you've arbitrarily decided you don't like something that you liked yesterday (I don't make people eat what they don't like, but neither do I make customized meals, and throwing your sandwich on the floor is right out, especially when you look me in the eye while you're doing it).
Maturity truly is the biggie, in my book. Clearly when we're talking "patience," a lot of the time we're talking something long-term and big-picture, not just that moment-to-moment restraining yourself from just going totally mental in front of everyone (though I've done that, too . . . might as well be honest). But -- you know, I don't think I've spoiled my younger kids, and we do try to be gentle and consistent and all that, but I really feel at a loss sometimes.
All that is a long way of saying, Feeling your pain.
Sally
By the way -- Angela was here in my town last month for a visit, and we met at the park -- I'm not sure quite how I figured out who she was, but we were easy to spot: the family that got out of the (other) big van, trailed by a little girl in some kind of pink getup shrieking at the top of her lungs that she didn't want to be there. Yep, that would be how we go many places . . .
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